Wizards fire Saunders.

[nuraman00]

I hope the Kings do the smart thing and hire Saunders. He's a pretty good offensive Xs and O's coach. Better than Smart. The Wizards were bad because their players are just mistake-prone and not improving, kind of like the Kings. But if the Kings hire Saunders, at some point it will pay off.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7497305/washington-wizards-fire-coach-flip-saunders-sources-say

[Eze]

I'm guessing they'll be in on him at season end if he comes cheaply.

Which he wont. lol

[ctba]

I think Smart is doing a good job.

[Eze]

Same here.

And after going through that hellhole, not sure trying to teach DeMarcus and especially Tyreke is something Flip would like to do for a while.

[DCKingsFan]

Yeah, I don't think that Flip and Tyreke would see eye to eye...

[nuraman00]

The Kings have gone from -10.4 margin of defeat under Westphal, to -13.1 under Smart.

The offense doesn't look any better, although Smart said its because he can't run like he wants to. He said the players get tired after 6 minutes. He's expects a running team to be able to keep it up for 15 minutes at least.

Their wins are by 3 or 4 points. They have no easy wins. There are 4 teams with a margin of defeat of -9.9 or worse: Sacramento, Detroit, Charlotte, Washington.

Similar to the 2008-2009 season, there haven't been any 20 point wins. That season had one, their road win @ NY on March 20th. I look at how many 20 point wins a team has, because even the worst team has one a year. And what a 20 point win signifies is that a team had an easy win. It means a team played at least 3 quarters of good basketball, more or less, and the rest might have been "recycle time". Other than the Lakers game, this team, in its wins, plays about 15-18 minutes of good basketball.

It only has one game where it has kept a lead for the game's first 24 minutes (San Antonio).

As for being wary of bringing any more hellhole, bring it on. I want more. This team doesn't look to be more polished than last year. Thornton has regressed. Cousins is better on offense but worse on defense. Evans isn't playing as well as he did as a rookie (but he's close). They need to learn how to play smarter, and they don't look like they're learning.

Is Tyreke even someone the team should build with? That remains to be seen.

Get a coach that can get this team to play with less mistakes, or to not make more mistakes than they did last year. If Evans can't adjust, he's probably not worth building with. He's Tyreke Evans, not a a superstar. Not an All-Star. He's just a decent player in the league at this point, nothing more. He shouldn't have as much clout as a young Jason Kidd did, for example. Evans isn't playing good enough to put his potential clashing with a coach over keeping peace with Smart but not having him improve.

Saunders is the kind of coach you would give a 3 year contract to. Smart is the kind of coach organizations don't know if they want to give 2 years to.

They were 4th in rebound rate last year, they are 29th this year.

This team was 27th in assist rate last year, they are far below 29th place this year. Although being the worst shooting team does cost a few assists.

This team has gotten worse in a few ways, under both Westphal and Smart, that I don't see why a veteran coach with a proven offensive system wouldn't be welcomed.

I don't think ownership would hire a new coach, but I think they should.

The guards on this team, Evans, Thornton, Fredette, and Thomas, need to learn how to run an offense and play basketball.

Evans and Thornton haven't been playing well enough where they should be sheltered from ways to improve themselves. If it creates conflict, I don't care, it's not like this team would be going anywhere this season. They aren't going to finish 10th in the conference. Or 20th in the league. This is just like another 2008-2009 as is.

[bloatedmaniac]

Yeah the Kings playing better under Smart is just on the surface because of squeaking out a couple wins. The team looks the same and features a lot of issues. I don't see Smart as a good teacher, and we have lots of players that NEED to learn. He is giving the usual excuses now, but after another 20 blowout losses, they will lose their luster.

Anyhow, the Kings will definately keep Smart until the season's end. Sadly I just don't see the Maloofs willing to pay any coach a real contract. They short ended Adelman for years, and gave low base contracts to all the coaches that came after. Since they are even more broke then before, I don't see why that would change.

As for Tyreke...I just don't see him ever being a #1 player. He is a nice compliment to a true #1, but I'm not even sold at what position he should play. A point guard that only attempts to run the offense every other week doesn't fill me with confidence.

[nuraman00]

Yeah the Kings playing better under Smart is just on the surface because of squeaking out a couple wins. The team looks the same and features a lot of issues. I don't see Smart as a good teacher, and we have lots of players that NEED to learn. He is giving the usual excuses now, but after another 20 blowout losses, they will lose their luster.

Anyhow, the Kings will definately keep Smart until the season's end. Sadly I just don't see the Maloofs willing to pay any coach a real contract. They short ended Adelman for years, and gave low base contracts to all the coaches that came after. Since they are even more broke then before, I don't see why that would change.

As for Tyreke...I just don't see him ever being a #1 player. He is a nice compliment to a true #1, but I'm not even sold at what position he should play. A point guard that only attempts to run the offense every other week doesn't fill me with confidence.

Lol. :(

Even with a bad team like the Raptors or Pistons, I don't get the sense that their players need as much teaching as the Kings players. They just lack certain talent. With the Kings, they need a lot of teaching, at every position, but especially the guards. The bigs are a little ahead at playing their position.

[BosnianBaller_]

NO NO NO NO NO. keep him away from the team.

[Eze]

Don't think Flip or anybody else does anything with this roster, as is.

Until Tyreke (which very well may never happen) turns the corner, this team isn't going any place. He either has to become something more than he is or the Kings need to move on.

Cousins is the only piece that is pretty much untouchable.

The architect of this building did a pretty sub-par job, IMO. Lots of individual talent, but, it's like trying to cram in puzzle pieces that just don't fit.

[nuraman00]

Don't think Flip or anybody else does anything with this roster, as is.

Until Tyreke (which very well may never happen) turns the corner, this team isn't going any place. He either has to become something more than he is or the Kings need to move on.

Cousins is the only piece that is pretty much untouchable.

The architect of this building did a pretty sub-par job, IMO. Lots of individual talent, but, it's like trying to cram in puzzle pieces that just don't fit.

Right, I just think he's a better option going forward in the next three years than the current coach, if the GM makes some changes.

[nuraman00]

NO NO NO NO NO. keep him away from the team.

I remember you weren't big on Saunders during his previous hires either, the last 5-6 years. Why?

[Eze]

Right, I just think he's a better option going forward in the next three years than the current coach, if the GM makes some changes.

Thinking that might be the start - changing GM's.

I'm not going to say Petrie sucks, BUT, he's trying to make a dollar out of three dimes and two nickles.

He's not the risk taker he once was (in trades and FA). He's playing with limited money. It's just a bad combo all around. Of course a GM change wont happen till the owners change or until Petrie's had enough.

[nuraman00]

Thinking that might be the start - changing GM's.

I'm not going to say Petrie sucks, BUT, he's trying to make a dollar out of three dimes and two nickles.

He's not the risk taker he once was (in trades and FA). He's playing with limited money. It's just a bad combo all around. Of course a GM change wont happen till the owners change or until Petrie's had enough.

I personally don't think there's many good GMs in the league. Usually about 6. I use all three tools to evaluate GMs (draft, trades, free agency), and most fail in at least one area.

Not saying I'm happy with what Petrie's done, but I think getting someone different will usually just lead to different mistakes. A new GM may bring some initial enthusiasm, with his or her talk about how there's going to be changes. But most will make some bad decisions within a few months.

Did you have any FA GM's in mind? Or perhaps an assistant GM that you think sounds promising, based on his quotes in the past?

[Eze]

I don't mind the occasional bad decision, they happen. You just can't make them when they're financially destructing.

And like you, I don't think there are a ton of good GM's out there either - probably a solid amount of younger front office guys who'd do a solid job (say like a Sam Presti did when he moved up through the Spurs and eventually to the Thunder), but much like owners, they seem to treat the GM's like a boys club - fresh blood isn't something they seem to encourage.

I don't think all the blame goes on Geoff, like I said you can't really make a dollar out of a couple dimes and nickles, but he's struck out quite a bit in recent years. For all the bitching we all do about coaching and stupid players, he is the one that put them together. He's the one who decided it was Evans over Rubio - the one who decided the team needed more ISO players when they already had more than enough - the one who brought in Nocioni, an unhealthy Abdur-Rahim, etc.

Moves that while he had financial handcuffs on, most saw with nothing but groans and moans before they were made.

[DCKingsFan]

Well, all I can say is following both the Wizards and Kings this year is painful. If you add the two teams together, you might have a playoff team.

PG: Wall, Crawford
SG: Evans, Thorton
SF: Vesely, Singleton
PF: Cousins, Hayes
C: McGee, Thompson

[Eze]

Maybe they should swap Evans and Wall. lol

[nuraman00]

He's the one who decided it was Evans over Rubio -

I know you liked Rubio. But wait until his 3rd year or so when he has some responsibility. I'm not as impressed with his ability to run a team yet. They are sheltering him. Ridnour is the one that initiates most of the offense. Ridnour is the one that inbounds the ball out of timeouts. Ridnour is the one that breaks down the defense first.

For example, in the Clippers game last Friday, Ridnour was the one that broke down the defense, passed it to Derrick Williams, who then passed it to Rubio for the game-tying 3. Then, for the game-winning play, Ridnour was the one that faked a pass to a cutting Derrick Williams, then passed it to Love for the game-winning 3-pointer. Rubio and Ellington had set the double-screen that freed up Williams, and then Love.

Rubio gets his assists on fast breaks, but I don't see much in his ability to run a halfcourt offense yet.

Wait until he has some responsibility to run a team on every possession.

I do think they're doing the right thing, having Ridnour play with him, for now. But just saying that Ridnour still runs the team. It's not like Chris Paul and Chauncey Billups, where either one can break down the defense. Right now, its mostly Ridnour in halfcourt sets.

Rondo was thrust into a significant role his 2nd year.

Let's see what Rubio looks like when he has to run an offense full time.

I know he has gaudy assist stats and steal stats. He definitely is a NBA player. But I'm still undecided on his ability to run a halfcourt offense.

Before he was drafted, my comparison of him was a Brevin Knight type player. So far, that seems similar, in that they are good on the fast break, but don't do enough in the halfcourt.

Carlos Arroyo was another player I thought was good on fast breaks, but not as good in the halfcourt.

[Eze]

I'm not impressed with Evans after three years. lol

I'd drive Evans to Minnesota for Rubio.

[nuraman00]

I'm not impressed with Evans after three years. lol


I think the lack of the right players on this team is a part of that. Whether you have Evans, Rubio, or Lawson, you still need the right mix for the team to look decent.

No doubt that Evans isn't stacking up to what Rose or Westbrook did in their 3rd years, or Tony Parker (who also entered the league at 19).

I think both individually Evans isn't playing well, but even if Deron Williams were on the team, they would be about as bad because they have a lot of other things they don't do well.

And I think on offense, halfcourt offense is a big problem, and as of what I've seen from Rubio right now, I don't think that would be fixed. Also the Kings wouldn't be good enough on fast breaks for Rubio's skills to be shown. This team is not good in the paint on offense. Nor can they shoot as well as Minnesota. This would just be another Nets team (but with Cousins), pieces that don't fit or aren't good enough. What I mean is I'm more concerned about the overall makeup than I am replacing any one position. Because I think this team would still be the "Nets" or "Kings" with just about any player substitution on it.

I mean that's why Steve Nash with Phoenix, or Deron with New Jersey's teams are the way they are. Better PG, (and Phoenix has a better frontcourt, with Gortat playing better than Cousins), but its still a bad team.

Thornton, Thomas, and Fredette are probably the only good fastbreak players, and neither is above average in that area. (I'm excluding Evans because we're assuming a different PG would be playing.)

I know Smart wants to run, but this team doesn't have those type of finishers, nor shooters. Nor can they score in the halfcourt either. It's just a lacking team.

Minnesota has a better team, and before preseason even started, I thought they'd be at least the 10th seed, and their outlook this season has only improved. I thought they'd finish much better than the Kings, they had better young talent and players who make less mistakes. And Derrick Williams hasn't made his mark yet.

The Kings don't have comparable players to Minnesota. They have less talent. Love is better than Cousins. Ridnour is better than Thornton. They don't have a player with the defensive qualities that Milicic has.

Comparing them to rosters around the league, they fall short in a lot of areas.

Rubio on the Kings would be about as effective as Thomas is (but with better defense). A few nice plays, but not a big enough impact to change the other 60 possessions in the game where the Kings make mistakes at both ends of the floor.

[Eze]

I can't stand players that don't give effort. Tyreke, doesn't. He does when he has the ball in his hand or can make a defensive play (like a block), but he simply stands in the corner and looks listless/doesn't run back unless he's going to be directly involved in the play.

Scroll to 1:30 and watch them run back. It's completely unacceptable on his part. He does that ALLLLL the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WJEO2j5Fc

[nuraman00]

I can't stand players that don't give effort. Tyreke, doesn't. He does when he has the ball in his hand or can make a defensive play (like a block), but he simply stands in the corner and looks listless/doesn't run back unless he's going to be directly involved in the play.

Scroll to 1:30 and watch them run back. It's completely unacceptable on his part. He does that ALLLLL the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WJEO2j5Fc

I agree. I noted the same in the Jazz game last year. I'll repost my recap from that game, and highlight the same sentiment. (I also had game pics in the recap, but I'm omitting them in this repost).

DCKingsFan agreed that Evans doesn't do anything on defense too.

I agree with you that Rubio, for example, is giving effort all the time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I went to the game.

Pregame:

45-50 minutes before tipoff, a bald Jazz player was warming up. It took me an hour to figure out it was Francisco Elson.

Omri Casspi was the other player warming up. He took 6-7 halfcourt shots.



There was one fan who had a Stockton jersey, with the purple mountains.

15 minutes until tipoff:

* The Jazz missed approximately 25 out of 30 shots on jumpers and layups. I couldn't believe it.

First half:

* Turnovers doomed the Jazz.

* Gordan Hayward has a good feel for the game. He can play on the ball, and off the ball. He can make good cuts for layups. He runs the floor well in transition. About as well as Ronnie Brewer did, minus the dunks.

* The Jazz didn't get to the foul line in the first quarter. The Kings didn't have that many themselves, but they did have some attempts.

Second half:

* The Jazz got it closer, but they couldn't stop the Kings passing. Kings ended up with 29 assists.

* Kyle Weaver had a great all-around guard game.

* Derrick Favors looked smaller than I envisioned.

* Tyreke Evans did not guard anyone, save for Gordan Hayward for two possessions, for the first three quarters. He seemed to just go for the rebound every time.

* Hayward and Weaver seemed to have good passing instincts too.

* On my way out, I saw a fan wearing one of the new yellow and blue C.J. Miles jerseys.

[nuraman00]

I know its not the same thing, but it bothered me about Cousins too. Saving himself a foul is one thing, but the Kings aren't even that good on offense Cousins playing an extra two minutes would matter. They need to be able to move into position and risk picking up a foul, for the sake of trying to play good defense without fouling.

Thomas aside, no one else on the Kings plays good defense.

I know Cousins saving himself picking up a foul isn't the same thing as Evans not giving effort, but its the same result IMO. The other team scores a basket. And those other teams are more efficient with their possessions, picking up and-ones and 3-pointers, than the Kings.

[nuraman00]

Speaking of Miles, he's a better player than Thornton this season.

I compared Thornton's contract with Miles, and it was similar in nature (not exact terms, but the type of contract you give to a young player).

But Miles is playing a cleaner game, and plays his role better.

[Eze]

I give Cousins a bit of a pass because he's "trying" to do what he think is right, even if it's not. Like last night when he plowed through Nene in the restricted zone and got called for a foul, he couldn't for the life of him understand why it was a foul on him - not understanding the restricted zone doesn't come into play in that scenario. He just doesn't know the game - not really an excuse for him, but, I just hope as he plays more he picks up the knowledge he needs in scenarios.

Reke on the other hand simply just doesn't give the required effort that's needed from him. Like Cousins, he doesn't understand how to play but Reke combines that with not giving a full effort. Worst thing that ever happened to him was the Kings (mostly Maloofs) praising him for his inflated 20/5/5.

As for Thornton, I wonder if it's a K-Mart scenario. He and Evans didn't mesh - and it appears that both Thornton and Evans aren't meshing well either. Not sure that's Thornton or Martin's fault...

[nuraman00]

I give Cousins a bit of a pass because he's "trying" to do what he think is right, even if it's not. Like last night when he plowed through Nene in the restricted zone and got called for a foul, he couldn't for the life of him understand why it was a foul on him - not understanding the restricted zone doesn't come into play in that scenario. He just doesn't know the game - not really an excuse for him, but, I just hope as he plays more he picks up the knowledge he needs in scenarios.

Reke on the other hand simply just doesn't give the required effort that's needed from him. Like Cousins, he doesn't understand how to play but Reke combines that with not giving a full effort. Worst thing that ever happened to him was the Kings (mostly Maloofs) praising him for his inflated 20/5/5.

As for Thornton, I wonder if it's a K-Mart scenario. He and Evans didn't mesh - and it appears that both Thornton and Evans aren't meshing well either. Not sure that's Thornton or Martin's fault...

I hate to keep referring back to last year, but they seemed to mesh last year, although it was in limited games.

For example, here was the Jazz game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201104050HOU.html

Or, their splits in April:

Evans (7 games): 17 points, 4.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists
Thornton (8 games): 18 points, 5.0 rebounds, 3.8 assists

But in the 19 games this year, they haven't played as well.

[nuraman00]

I give Cousins a bit of a pass because he's "trying" to do what he think is right, even if it's not. Like last night when he plowed through Nene in the restricted zone and got called for a foul, he couldn't for the life of him understand why it was a foul on him - not understanding the restricted zone doesn't come into play in that scenario. He just doesn't know the game - not really an excuse for him, but, I just hope as he plays more he picks up the knowledge he needs in scenarios.

Reke on the other hand simply just doesn't give the required effort that's needed from him. Like Cousins, he doesn't understand how to play but Reke combines that with not giving a full effort. Worst thing that ever happened to him was the Kings (mostly Maloofs) praising him for his inflated 20/5/5.

As for Thornton, I wonder if it's a K-Mart scenario. He and Evans didn't mesh - and it appears that both Thornton and Evans aren't meshing well either. Not sure that's Thornton or Martin's fault...

I thought Evans and Martin together were fine. The team lost a lot of games because they were percentage points from having the worst defense in the history of the NBA.

That team still put up a better offense than this team.




Reke on the other hand simply just doesn't give the required effort that's needed from him. Like Cousins, he doesn't understand how to play but Reke combines that with not giving a full effort. Worst thing that ever happened to him was the Kings (mostly Maloofs) praising him for his inflated 20/5/5.



Well he did win ROY, so it wasn't just the owners, it was the 118 members of the voting national media too. And I think you have to praise him for that. What kind of an organization wouldn't promote their ROY? Even the Spurs would if they had one.

But I thought Evans lack of effort started IN his rookie season. Specifically sometime after the road win @ Utah in November. So I thought he showed flashes of that one month into his rookie season, its just that he was playing well enough on offense for it to be overlooked.

So I think its always been there, I just thought the effort would increase at some point in his 2nd or 3rd year, but its not.

[nuraman00]

I give Cousins a bit of a pass because he's "trying" to do what he think is right, even if it's not. Like last night when he plowed through Nene in the restricted zone and got called for a foul, he couldn't for the life of him understand why it was a foul on him - not understanding the restricted zone doesn't come into play in that scenario. He just doesn't know the game - not really an excuse for him, but, I just hope as he plays more he picks up the knowledge he needs in scenarios.



I wonder if playing with a vet like Hayes, who appears to be the talking, communicative type, would help.

[bloatedmaniac]

To his credit, Cousins leads to league in charges drawn. Thats not bad at all for a second year player, but his mindset does change when he is up there with fouls. Things like that improve with experience, confidence, and when he develops more trust in officials to not call bogus fouls on him.

Tyreke just annoys me. Last year was pathetic with him not wanting to play hurt, but you could understand a bit. This year he has no excuse, he just plays like he doesn't care. The organization gave him the keys to the franchise, but he cares more about racing on the free way than racing down the court. Honestly, he is among the biggest reasons this franchise didn't evolve these last two years. His growth was key, but unfortunately he is content settling for one big night every 8 games or so.

[Eze]

I don't really know if they meshed all that well together.

Thornton put up 22.3 on 47.8% pre Reke (after he was given 30+ min a game in the rotation, 14 games). When Reke returned, Thornton went for 20.5 on 41.6% (11 games).

[nuraman00]

To his credit, Cousins leads to league in charges drawn. Thats not bad at all for a second year player, but his mindset does change when he is up there with fouls. Things like that improve with experience, confidence, and when he develops more trust in officials to not call bogus fouls on him.

Tyreke just annoys me. Last year was pathetic with him not wanting to play hurt, but you could understand a bit. This year he has no excuse, he just plays like he doesn't care. The organization gave him the keys to the franchise, but he cares more about racing on the free way than racing down the court. Honestly, he is among the biggest reasons this franchise didn't evolve these last two years. His growth was key, but unfortunately he is content settling for one big night every 8 games or so.

As was stated a few weeks ago, "I guess it wasn't the plantar fasciitis". :(

[Eze]

Well he did win ROY, so it wasn't just the owners, it was the 118 members of the voting national media too. And I think you have to praise him for that. What kind of an organization wouldn't promote their ROY? Even the Spurs would if they had one.

Not sure how you don't vote for a guy that did something only Lebron, MJ and Oscar did. I would have voted for him too.

That said - if they weren't force feeding him, he wouldn't have got that. Cool that he got it, no doubt, but inflated, and made his expectations huge.

I can give rookies a pass on knowledge and effort, second year players to a point, but by now? In a third year? That's a problem with the player, to me.

[nuraman00]

I don't really know if they meshed all that well together.

Thornton put up 22.3 on 47.8% pre Reke (after he was given 30+ min a game in the rotation, 14 games). When Reke returned, Thornton went for 20.5 on 41.6% (11 games).

Both Evans and Thornton were still getting to the foul line a bit, combined, so it added some points per possession.

What were the combined PG-SG FT attempts with Thornton pre-Evans, and then with Evans-Thornton? I'd like to see if there was increased production.

They weren't going to be as efficient as Pierce-Allen, but I thought combined they at least provided a more dynamic two-guard attack, like an Ellis-Curry.

[nuraman00]

Not sure how you don't vote for a guy that did something only Lebron, MJ and Oscar did. I would have voted for him too.

That said - if they weren't force feeding him, he wouldn't have got that. Cool that he got it, no doubt, but inflated, and made his expectations huge.

I can give rookies a pass on knowledge and effort, second year players to a point, but by now? In a third year? That's a problem with the player, to me.

I agree.

[bloatedmaniac]

Oh and as far as the Martin/Evans, Thornton/Evans debacle I do think the cases were different. Martin was cold after missing most of the year with injury so judging him on playing just a few games following his return was unfair. He was missing all kinds of open looks, and he was an offensive player that didn't depend on taking a ton of shots. I thought it would work if given time. That season, following the trade, Martin continued his struggles as he was not 100%. He bounced back the following year when he was fine.

As far as Thornton is concerned, I think his offense was hurt last year after Tyreke came back. He can play off the ball, but right now he is too one-dimension in his focus to be "the man". This makes it really hard for him to play with Tyreke as both command the ball, both are eager to make the points on offense, and neither seem willing to play off each other. You rarely see many Tyreke-Thornton plays or vice versa. Thats an issue about not having a true playmaker or #1 option. Nobody really seems to settle into off roles well. It becomes a street game where everyone wants the ball to score.

[nuraman00]

Oh and as far as the Martin/Evans, Thornton/Evans debacle I do think the cases were different. Martin was cold after missing most of the year with injury so judging him on playing just a few games following his return was unfair. He was missing all kinds of open looks, and he was an offensive player that didn't depend on taking a ton of shots. I thought it would work if given time. That season, following the trade, Martin continued his struggles as he was not 100%. He bounced back the following year when he was fine.

As far as Thornton is concerned, I think his offense was hurt last year after Tyreke came back. He can play off the ball, but right now he is too one-dimension in his focus to be "the man". This makes it really hard for him to play with Tyreke as both command the ball, both are eager to make the points on offense, and neither seem willing to play off each other. You rarely see many Tyreke-Thornton plays or vice versa. Thats an issue about not having a true playmaker or #1 option. Nobody really seems to settle into off roles well. It becomes a street game where everyone wants the ball to score.

The thing is, I thought Thornton showed a good enough ability to play off the ball, even with Evans last year.

This year, he's shown none of that. This year, his playing off the ball results in him taking a 24 foot shot as a spot up shooter. As you said, he's too one-dimensional this year.

To his credit, there's a reason he got those assists last year. He was playing both on the ball and off the ball. And just as revealing is how those assists have gone down.

Cousins assists have also gone down, but that's because he's not getting the ball in the high post anymore.

[nuraman00]

Thornton's assist % was 15.3% last year as a King, and is 10.0% this year.

[nuraman00]

I didn't even think Thornton was going to be a good fit when he came, but he convinced me after 5-6 weeks.

Now he convinced me he's a worse version of JR Swish.

[Eze]

Both Evans and Thornton were still getting to the foul line a bit, combined, so it added some points per possession.

What were the combined PG-SG FT attempts with Thornton pre-Evans, and then with Evans-Thornton? I'd like to see if there was increased production.

They weren't going to be as efficient as Pierce-Allen, but I thought combined they at least provided a more dynamic two-guard attack, like an Ellis-Curry.

Udrih/Thornton shot 44/68 in 14 games (though three games in that stretch were missed by Udrih, which Luther Head played)

Thornton/Evans shot 46/51 in 11 games

So Thornton averaged 4.8 attempts without Evans, 4.1 with Evans.

[Eze]

I think you'd like Thornton more with a player that complimented his style, Nuraman. Like Bloated said, I don't think they can play off each other (at least right now)

[nuraman00]

Udrih/Thornton shot 44/68 in 14 games (though three games in that stretch were missed by Udrih, which Luther Head played)

Thornton/Evans shot 46/51 in 11 games

So Thornton averaged 4.8 attempts without Evans, 4.1 with Evans.

That's a lot of missed free throws with that Udrih-Thornton stretch.

Thanks for looking that up btw. Didn't have time right now.

[nuraman00]

Going back to the semi-topic of what I want in a halfcourt offense, this is Lawson's first year with responsibilities. I'm not sure what to think of him yet, hopefully I'll have a more refined opinion of him at the end of the year.

I do think Miller runs a halfcourt offense much better. Lawson seems in-between right now.

Raymond Felton is someone I never liked in a halfcourt offense, he was only an up-tempo guy IMO.

[nuraman00]

If you don't mind, can you look up one more thing? How many assists and turnovers per game did Evans-Thornton average when they started together last year, and how about this year?

[Eze]

That's a lot of missed free throws with that Udrih-Thornton stretch.

Thanks for looking that up btw. Didn't have time right now.

Oh I thought you wanted TOTAL FT's per game, that's total, not missed lol

[Eze]

I'll the numbers on that here in a bit

[Eze]

Thornton:

10/11 - 26 assists, 16 turnovers (7 games they started together)
11/12 - 25 assists, 32 turnovers (14 games they started together)

Evans:

10/11 - 42 assists, 25 turnovers (had a 10 assist, 4 turn game in there vs Utah)
11/12 - 64 assists, 40 turnovers

So in 11/12, their ratings are 1.2 assists to turnovers. In 10/11 it was 1.6

It's a titch higher than that (for 11/12) since one of the games Thornton started, he left 13 minutes in - but still - not that much higher.

[nuraman00]

Thornton:

10/11 - 26 assists, 16 turnovers (7 games they started together)
11/12 - 25 assists, 32 turnovers (14 games they started together)

Evans:

10/11 - 42 assists, 25 turnovers (had a 10 assist, 4 turn game in there vs Utah)
11/12 - 64 assists, 40 turnovers

So in 11/12, their ratings are 1.2 assists to turnovers. In 10/11 it was 1.6

It's a titch higher than that (for 11/12) since one of the games Thornton started, he left 13 minutes in - but still - not that much higher.

Ok, so they went from averaging a combined 9.7 assists to a combined 6.36 assists.

And they went from a combined 5.86 turnovers to a combined 5.14 turnovers.

So the drop in A/T was due the the 40% drop in assists.

[nuraman00]

Udrih/Thornton shot 44/68 in 14 games (though three games in that stretch were missed by Udrih, which Luther Head played)

Thornton/Evans shot 46/51 in 11 games

So Thornton averaged 4.8 attempts without Evans, 4.1 with Evans.



Oh I thought you wanted TOTAL FT's per game, that's total, not missed lol

Ok, so Udrih-Evans averaged 8.0 combined FT attempts per game, while Thornton-Evans averaged 8.8 combined FT attempts. That's not that much more. I thought it would have been 1.5-3 more attempts, but I guess Thornton-Evans last year weren't as more attacking as I thought they were.

[bloatedmaniac]

Ok, so Udrih-Evans averaged 8.0 combined FT attempts per game, while Thornton-Evans averaged 8.8 combined FT attempts. That's not that much more. I thought it would have been 1.5-3 more attempts, but I guess Thornton-Evans last year weren't as more attacking as I thought they were.

Evans would need a wheelchair to attack last year.

[nuraman00]

Evans would need a wheelchair to attack last year.

Sorry, Power Balance Pavilion doesn't have any wheelchairs. They'd just use the folding chairs that are in the locker rooms.

[DCKingsFan]

I wonder if playing with a vet like Hayes, who appears to be the talking, communicative type, would help.

There is no question about that...